ELP Digest Wednesday, 7 Dec 1994 Volume 4 : Issue 25 The "Now I've Got A Different Plan" Edition Today's Topics: CDs with Welcome Back material Questions from a Recent Fan Re: ELP clones ITHS temporary review Re: ELP Digest V4 #21 (ELP - Cheryl Crow connection) Prog = Avant-Garde Triumvirat In The Hot Seat ITHS "References" to Wetton Lyrics Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog??? Great Prog-rock Joke More Greg Lake=Bill Shatner Silliness Even More Greg Lake=Bill Shatner Prelude ======= Finally, I'm back. Settled into a new job, converted most of my Digest scripts to work their magic, and now the first ELP Digest from my new personal Internet account at iii.net. Thanks for your patience! I've got enough stuff for 2 or 3 Digests so I'll be trickling them out over the next few nights. Remember, the new internet address is arnold@iii.net! As always, - John - [ Administrative information appears at the end of this Digest. ] ------------------------------------------------------------ From dtratt@lmg.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Nov 17 18:25:31 1994 Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 15:25:32 -0800 To: bjorn-are.davidsen@s.televerket.tele.no Subject: CDs with Welcome Back material Cc: arnold@iii.net > There are several CD's and LP's from the same concert as on > WBMFTTSTNE (the pieces are Hoedown, Still You Turn Me On, > Lucky Man, Toccata, Jerusalem and Karn Evil 9 (most often just pt. > 1). I haven't checked if it's the exact same version of EVERY one of > these pieces. > > Some of the CD's/LP'S also contain other things (given on the > labels). The concert was held at Anaheim Convention Centre on Feb > 10, 1974 and as far as I can gather may be found on the CD's > > Live in Anaheim > Impressions > Smashing the Piano > Supergroups live in Concert 1975 > Tank > British Prog Rockers in Concert > > and on the LP's > > Callow Crash & Idel Eyes > Tours of America pt. 3 > Exposure > Live in London 71 Hey Bjoern Are! Don't forget to tell 'em that the WBMFTTSTNE stuff also appears on the CD "Rondo" (cat. ACS 002), which the packaging insists is from Long Beach '72 (only the last track - Rondo - is). Why do I have to keep telling you this?? :-) Best, Dave ------------------------------ From: BRATULIC ROBERT To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Questions from a Recent Fan Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 19:22:00 -0500 Hi, This is my first post to this digest. I haven't bought "ItHS" yet, and based on the remarks here I almost don't want to for fear of shattering my image of ELP! Even though I would probably call them my favorite band, I don't think I played the entire "Black Moon" CD more than once, although I will occasionally go back to certain tracks. I basically discovered ELP about 3 years ago, and since then have devoured most of their 70's CD's. The net result is that I was expecting the same "sound" on a recording made by a 15- year-older ELP. Anyways, as a new poster I have some questions you may be able to help me with: 1. Where can I get scores for Tarkus, Karn Evil 9, and Pirates? I want them *real bad*! [ Editor's reply: Not exactly "scores" but Tarkus and Pirates were in ELP sheet music books long out of print. I've never seen a complete score or complete sheet music to KE9. Check the back issues for availability of a transcription of the 2nd impression by Dan Barrett, however. - John - ] 2. What instrument is playing the awesome solo part in the "Fanfare for the Common Man" in Works I? It sounds too monophonic to be just a synth, but then again it probably is. [ Editor's note: It's the top keyboard (a little 2 or 3 octave thing) on Keith's Yamaha GX-1. See back issues of Keybaord magazine for more details. - John - ] 3. I don't have "Love Beach". Why does everyone speak about it in such embarrassing terms? [ Editor's note: Not everyone hates it. You have to hear it and then read what people have to say about it. I understand both camps' points of view but I kind of like it. But, be warned, it's nothing like Karn Evil 9 or Pirates! - John - ] 4. Did "Black Moon" make any impact on the charts? (I know that's not traditionally ELP's style, but then again neither was "Black Moon") [ Editor's note: I don't think it made the top 100 but I could be wrong. - John - ] 5. With all due respect, does Emerson need Lake and Palmer? Palmer enriches Emerson. Lake, on the other, does not seem to do much for Emerson (other than lyrics) because his solo style is so different from Emerson's. [ Editor's note: Sounds like a whole topic of discussion to me..... ] Robert. bratuli@skule.ecf.toronto.edu ------------------------------ From: StmpyJCat@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 13:13:21 -0500 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Re: ELP clones Mark McCarron-Fraser wrote regarding Cairo: <<>> I would definitely NOT call Cairo an ELP clone band. Keyboardist Mark Robertson has a similar style to KE but really is his own man. I've heard the whole album and as Mark said "Cairo also have moments where they sound like Cairo." This is the rule rather than the exception, IMHO. Stimp ------------------------------ From: pal.giortz@ad.dep.telemax.no Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 09:56:12 +0100 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ITHS temporary review After several listenings, I still try to like ITHS. I mean, it is not bad, but still it is not the ELP-sound I love. Many of the tunes falls nicely into my ears, and, as other Digesters has pointed out, many non-Elpfreaks accepts it rapidly. When I turn on ELP; however, it is not to have just easy listening. Numbers of others are into that. I want to have that very personal expressed music, by those excellent talented musicians we know ELP are. Some of the figures in ITHS are good, but are far from what we know those guys can. And, most important, could have been much further developed by Keith and Carl. I follow Dave Bentley in Digest V4#24, and what others has said about ITHS being basically a Greg album. Greg is great in many respect, and has done much of his share here. But I miss Keith's personality, strength and musical power. Carl's experimental and joy for playing. Keith seems to be litterally speaking handicapped on ITHS, and the album suffer from that. I am sorry I have to rank ITHS below Black Moon. ITHS has yet non of the potential of BM, like R&J, CS and others, including a Greg piece like Footprints... I hope I will change my mind ! Paul E-mail: pal.giortz@ad.dep.telemax.no ------------------------------ From: StmpyJCat@aol.com To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Re: ELP Digest V4 #21 smithdn@utdallas.edu writes: <<>> It's very ironic that you mention Romeo and Juliet in the same paragraph as Cheryl Crow. The reason is that Kevin Gilbert, who produced KE's demos which included Romeo and Juliet (before the band reformed for Black Moon), also wrote a lot of the music and played keyboards on Cheryl Crow's album!!! Stimp ------------------------------ From: Maureen@eworld.com To: arnold@iii.net Date: Sat, 19 Nov 94 18:43:32 PST Subject: Prog = Avant-Garde My brother-in-law, Brett, lives in Bullhead City, AZ. He was in Japan recently, on business, and had promised one of the DJs at a Bullhead radio station that he (Brett) would bring back some unreleased-in-the-States CDs for the DJ to play. Well, to make a long story short, Brett returned with the latest Eric Clapton album, _Vroom_, and _ItHS_, and has been eagerly awaiting hearing them on the radio. Alas, to no avail, in some cases. The DJ tells him that _Vroom_ and _ItHS_ are just too avant-garde to play in Bullhead City. :::scratching head and shrugging shoulders::: Sla/n, Mo! Maureen@eWorld.com ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 94 12:07:29 EST From: Russ <75337.3537@compuserve.com> To: j arnold Subject: Triumvirat Do you happen to know anything about Triumvirat? Specifically, I am looking for rarities (live audio and Video) Thanx [ Editor's note: I know very little about Triumvirat. Any readers have any information to pass along? - John - ] ------------------------------ From: bjorn-are.davidsen@s.televerket.tele.no Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 10:37:38 +0100 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: In The Hot Seat Re: In The Hot Seat After having read more of the reviews in the Digest, and talked to non ELP fans having heard In The Hot Seat, I think I understand a bit more about the reactions - and why it may not sell very well, or get reviews outside of the Digest or other Internnet places (Anyone seen any outside the net, BTW?). First - and that is my own big disappointment (even if I enjoy the album!) is that it is not very "progressive". I like it a lot less than their fab five albums from the early 70's (and the much underrated ELPowell), however, I think it is better than Black Moon (not so longwinded, or overtly pompous without much substance a.s.o.)! They could have done a lot better, with longer more worked out compositions, and made it not so chord based. WiIl they ever return to their good old contrapuntal compositional techniques, their brave original pieces and wild interpretations of others? Pray and hope, folks! Second - the CD is far too complex for really being radio friendly. All I have talked to who enjoy radio friendly music complain of ITHS because it takes too long a time to get into most of the pieces (Daddy being an obvious exception, alomg with "Gone too Far"). So ITHS falls between two chairs. It's not really progressive and it's not really radio friendly. Still I like it! Re: Monty Python Bwen wrote > Hi all, > I just have a comment :) > > Bjorn-are/Mo, > Re MP/ELP: You two should team up, writing commedy. I'm a > Monte Python fan. > I was ROFLMAO just _reading_ your post. > > Thanks, > > Bwen ;D Thank you! So we have been discovered! OK, we'll tell BBC of the brave new comedy group, the Manti Python, with our logo of a giant Manticore battling a giant Python (made by Terry Gilliam, BTW). As soon as our shows starts on the BBC (by December, I guess) we'll inform the list! Re: Conversion? Anyone noticed the Christian - or at least Christian oriented imagery - in the lyrics of ITHS? I have waited with my comments on this as I was afraid I might be a bit too biased by my own views in this area. However, I will take the risk and bring forth some thoughts on this, as I feel it is rather consistent through the songs. To give some examples: >From HAND OF TRUTH This world is not an easy rider It's where the tigers walk To see the light of heaven You'll need the eyes of a hawk ... There's fire in the heavens It's burning in the hand of truth What's being meant by "The hand of truth", if not a kind of supreme being? >From DADDY I know she rests in heaven With the angels on a throne No more talk of "Why did he loose, six millions jews"? Interesting change in their approach to "The Problem of Pain"! >From ONE BY ONE Watch as the demons dance They move like a spider Look in the devil's eyes As he goes for the kill In the valley of truth The shadow is just getting wider... The imagery is rather religious, ain't it? >From HEART ON ICE: And I'm sorry when I fell from grace... >From CHANGE: A fallen angel in a trance... Is this a brave knock at a New Age kind of practise? And "fallen angel" is a term with about one meaning only... It may all be a coincidence - or a convenience - and be due to they having stayed in "God's own country" too long, losing their English opposition to the church and all that. And there's a lot of passages like "Open up your hearts", "We're searching for the flame", "the martyr and the madman", "the soul of freedom", and "we must turn the other cheek". I would like to have comments from others on this! As a "practising" Christian myself I may read too much into it! Of course, there is not any "preaching" on the CD, however, they (or Greg) have in fact changed in other ways the last twenty years, and it just may have had some effect on their world views also... Bjo/rn Are ------------------------------ From: bstein@aip.acp.org Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 09:27:12 -0500 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ITHS "References" to Wetton Lyrics Has anyone else noticed that _In the Hot Seat_ contains a number of "references" to John Wetton lyrics ;-)? HAND OF TRUTH--"Nothing to Lose" (UK--Danger Money) CHANGE--"Fallen Angel" (King Crimson--Red) STREET WAR--"In the Dead of Night" (UK--UK) Now of course these are all cliches to begin with, so I'm sure all of the above were unintentional. But then again, Lake seems to make references to a couple of his OWN earlier songs. For example: HAND OF TRUTH--"Fire on the Mountain" (Black Moon) ONE ON ONE--"His talons are sharp as a dagger" (Similar to ELPowell--The Miracle) In a way, the "Fire on the Mountain" reference is fitting because I view "Hand of Truth" and the song "Black Moon" as being two opposite ways of viewing the world situation: one has a hopeful outlook, while the other has a desperate, gloomy tone. --Ben ------------------------------ From: Maureen@eworld.com To: arnold@iii.net Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 15:40:13 PST Subject: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog??? Found this on a.m.p. this afternoon: [ Editor's note: a.m.p is the Usenet newsgroup alt.music.progressive ] > From: bs3@pinet.aip.org (ben_stein) > Subject: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 14:11:26 GMT > > I propose that Greg Lake and Bill Shatner are similar in many > ways. Both have the tendency to be pompous and grandiose, and > both are often bad in their respective roles as lyricist and actor, but > in endearing ways. So I propose that Lake should be appreciated > like Shatner: don't expect great art from him, but enjoy his unique > personality and style. > > I submit this proposal partly in jest, but I would like to hear your > comments about this on this newsgroup. > > --Ben And the first reply: > From: Roby J. Robinson > Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive > Subject: Re: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Date: 22 Nov 1994 17:34:28 GMT > >Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Hmmmmm. > > My initial exposure to Greg Lake was when he sat in with Asia for > their world broadcast from Japan via MTV in the early 80s. I had > just found Asia and was just getting into Yes at the time. On this > performance alone, I... can... well... start to see... the point... > you're... trying to make (with the best Kirk imitation I could do at > this time). > > Also, that tremendous performance ELP put on for Regis and > Kathie Lee... I cried. I wish Greg would've gotten a drink of water, > or maybe a better song selection. > > But Greg does have tremendous skills as a vocalist and bass player. > His ability to play and sing around Emerson's parts could only > have been done by him. I may get thrown out of the group for > this, but I don't think that Squire, Rutherford, Lee Jackson, or any > of the bass players from Crimson post-Lake could have helped > make ELP as good as it was. They would have drastically changed > the style of play, and probably not for the better of music as a > whole, IMO only. > > However, they both do own farms. Posted for your amusement only; the opinions stated are those of the original posters. I do agree with the second poster's opinion of Greg's musical abilities. I am donning my three-layer Nomex long johns as I press the button, however. :-) Sla/n, Mo! Maureen@eWorld.com ------------------------------ From: Maureen@eworld.com To: arnold@iii.net Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 15:40:16 PST Subject: Great Prog-rock Joke Further musings from a.m.p.: > From: hobbs_a@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz > Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive > Subject: Great prog-rock joke > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 94 13:15:13 +1200 > > This I got out of one of those tacky "History of Rock" books: > > "Progressive rock was what happened in the early 70's when > certain brilliant instrumentalists got fed up with playing > three-and-a-half minute long songs about teenage love. > Unfortunately, this led them to start playing ten-and-a-half minute > long songs about nothing in particular." > > Cool, the guy musta heard "Heart of the Sunrise!" :) > -- > Anthony "SCHWAibo" Hobbs Wellington, NZ > hobbs_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz > President, soc.bi "Get a Life" society; Neutopian Minister of > Propaganda > > "...and you and I climb over the valleys of endless seas." Sla/n, Mo! Maureen@eWorld.com ------------------------------ From: Maureen@eworld.com To: arnold@iii.net Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 11:41:09 PST Subject: More Greg Lake=Bill Shatner Silliness The silliness continues: > From: sullivan@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) > Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive > Subject: Re: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Date: 22 Nov 1994 21:05:59 GMT > > Roby J. Robinson (rsquared@vt.edu) wrote: > > : But Greg does have tremendous skills as a vocalist and bass > : player. His ability to play and sing around Emerson's parts could > : only have been done by him. I may get thrown out of the group > : for this, but I don't think that Squire, Rutherford, Lee Jackson, or > : any of the bass players from Crimson post-Lake could have > : helped make ELP as good as it was. They would have drastically > : changed the style of play, and probably not for the better of music > : as a whole, IMO only. > > : However, they both do own farms. > > No one gets 'thrown out' around here, though they may depart > freely with their butt on fire. > > Squire and Lake were roommates back in the days of Swingin' > London. Though Lake in his heyday had a more powerful and > versatile voice than Squire, their abilities to play and sing > simulataneously were p[retty well matched. ESP would have still > been a tehcnically very accomplished band, with perhaps a more > democratic balance between bass and keyboards, whether it would > have been 'better' or 'worse' I can't say. It probably would have > been interesting. and... > From: offpeak@aol.com (OffPeak) > Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive > Subject: Re: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Date: 22 Nov 1994 22:45:16 -0500 > > I don't know why, but this does seem to make sense. I hope Greg > doesn't start hawking margarine, or have a "real-life" police > drama! :::shrugging shoulders in total bemusement::: Sla/n, Mo! Maureen@eWorld.com ------------------------------ From: Maureen@eworld.com To: arnold@iii.net Date: Thu, 24 Nov 94 00:02:38 PST Subject: Even More Greg Lake=Bill Shatner These guys just won't quit!!!: > From: adamzion@cellar.org (Adam Zion) > Subject: Re: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 11:43:52 EST > > sullivan@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) writes: > > > Squire and Lake were roommates back in the days of Swingin' > > London. Though Lake in his heyday had a more powerful and > > versatile voice than Squire, their abilities to play and sing > > simulataneously were p[retty well matched. ESP would have > > still been a tehcnically very accomplished band, with perhaps a > > more democratic balance between bass and keyboards, whether > > it would have been 'better' or 'worse' I can't say. It probably > > would have been interesting. > > My impression has always been that Squire was a *much* > stronger composer than Lake. While Lake has one specialty- the > pretty melody- Squire shows on _Fish out of Water_ that he is > proficient in a number of compositional styles. ESP (gee- why can > I almost know what they sound like without hearing them? > [sorry- obvious pun- had to be said]) would certainly have turned > out much differently than ELP did, simply because there would > be have been a lot more interplay in the composition of the > music between Emerson and Squire than there was between > Emo and Lake. > The vocals, though, would have suffered. > > Adam > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > | SEE YUZ! from Adam Zion | Fidonet- 1:2614/720 | RIME- #5146 > | > | | Internet- adamzion@cellar.org | > | My PGP 2.3a public key is available upon request. | > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > From: jgoat@world.std.com (James Forgy) > Subject: Re: Greg Lake is the Bill Shatner of Prog Rock > Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:14:11 GMT > > ben_stein (bs3@pinet.aip.org) wrote: > > : I propose that Greg Lake and Bill Shatner are similar in many > : ways. Both have the tendency to be pompous and grandiose, > : and both are often bad in their respective roles as lyricist and > : actor, but in endearing ways. So I propose that Lake should be > : appreciated like Shatner: don't expect great art from him, but > : enjoy his unique personality and style. > > : I submit this proposal partly in jest, but I would like to hear > : your comments about this on this newsgroup. > > : --Ben > > Well Ben then who is the Richard Burton of Prog Rock. Who is > the great lyricist that blows Lake away (aside from sinfield). Is it > Palmer-James, some bum on the Gentle Giants, John Wetton, > John Anderson and his Ten-True summers... I am sick of hearing > Lake being dissed for great lyrics... of course now he is an > over-the-hill bum, but in his prime he was one of the best. > > -jf Sla/n, Mo! Maureen@eWorld.com ------------------------------ Digest, mailing address, and administrative stuff to: arnold@iii.net ==\ => NEW (as of 11/17/94) ELP-related info that you / want to put in the digest to: arnold@iii.net =/ Back issues are available from the World Wide Web ELP Home Page: URL: http://bliss.berkeley.edu/elp/ Back issues are also available via anonymous ftp: ftp site: ftp.uwp.edu user name: anonymous password: provide a full email address path: /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1991/elp-digest-1.* /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1992/elp-digest-2.* /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1993/elp-digest-3.* /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1994/elp-digest-4.* Note: The opinions, information, etc. contained in this digest are those of the original message sender listed in each message below. They are not necessarily those of the mailing list/digest administrator or those of any institution through whose computers/networks this mail flows. Unless otherwise noted, the individual authors of each entry in the Digest are the copyright holders of that entry. Please respect that copyright and act accordingly. I especially ask that you not redistribute the ELP Digest in whole or in part without acknowledging the original source of the digest and each author. Thanks! ------------------------------ End of ELP Digest [Volume 4 Issue 25] *************************************