ELP Digest Thursday, 22 Dec 1994 Volume 4 : Issue 27 The "Till I Believed" Edition Today's Topics: Re: Questions from a recent fan (songbooks) Great Gates of Kiev Does E need L and P ? Romeo and Juliet CD for sale (resend) Need some Keith Emerson album info re: Who are the great lyricists of prog rock I'd Like to Retract the Shatner-Lake Comparison Re: ELP Digest V4 #25 (more on the band called CAIRO) My Two Cents re: Questions from a Recent Fan Comments on ItHS ELP at Circut City! (story from 1993) Prelude ======= The traditional holiday season ELP Digest has arrived. Here's hoping that you and yours had/are having/will have a nice Hanukkah/Winter Solstice/Christmas/etc. ! Keep those electronic cards and letters coming. And here's an early toast to a great 1995. Let's hope we're rewarded with an ELP tour! - John Arnold - arnold@iii.net [ Administrative information appears at the end of this Digest ] ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:50:15 -0600 (CST) From: Sarah Ann Jones To: John E Arnold Subject: Re: Questions from a recent fan (songbooks) > From: BRATULIC ROBERT > To: arnold@iii.net > Subject: Questions from a Recent Fan > Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 19:22:00 -0500 > 1. Where can I get scores for Tarkus, Karn Evil 9, and > Pirates? I want them *real bad*! > > [ Editor's reply: Not exactly "scores" but Tarkus and Pirates were in > ELP sheet music books long out of print. I've never > seen a complete score or complete sheet music to > KE9. Check the back issues for availability of a > transcription of the 2nd impression by Dan Barrett, > however. - John - ] While the songbooks are out-of-print, there are libraries in the US that own them. If the songbook versions will do, I'd suggest going to your library (either university, or if you aren't connected to a university or college go to your public library) and trying to borrow them through interlibrary loan. (however... I haven't been able to verify that libraries outside the US own any of these... those not in North America may have more trouble finding a library to borrow these from) I've found libraries that own "Tarkus" (OCLC# 7814935); "Emerson Lake & Palmer" (OCLC# 13808713) containing: Trilogy, The Endless Enigma, parts 1 & 2, Take a Pebble, The Sheriff, Jeremy Bender, Benny the Bouncer; and "Anthology" (OCLC# 8018737 or #9421053) containing Pirates, Still you Turn me on, The Fugue from Endless Enigma, Love Beach, Memoirs of an officer...., Lucky Man, and the Great Gates of Kiev. Now.... if any of you guys do go and borrow these, take care of them! These libraries lend these so *everybody* can share! :) --Sarah *********************************************************************** Sarah Jones ".... disturbing the waters of our lives." Univ of North Texas SLIS grad student: saj0001@jove.acs.unt.edu Univ of Texas at Arlington Libraries ILLer: Sarah.Jones@uta.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: pal.giortz@ad.dep.telemax.no Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 08:46:35 +0100 To: arnold@iii.net (Non Receipt Notification Requested) Subject: Great Gates of Kiev Hi, friends, Has anyone on this network any (good) explenation of why ELP calls the piece The Great Gates of Kiev, in plural, when Mussorskij himself called it The Great Gate of Kiev, in singular, and the sketch of Victor Hartmann was actually of one city gate to Kiev (that was never accomplished) ? Does it suit better with the lyrics - which I don't have ? If anyone has the lyrics available, I would be thankfull if it was mailed me, either in the Digest or to me directly. Paul Giortz Administrasjonsdepartementet Administrasjonsavdelingen Tlf: (22 34) 46 14 Fax: (22 34) 27 14 E-mail: pal.giortz@ad.dep.telemax.no ------------------------------ From: pal.giortz@ad.dep.telemax.no Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:19:14 +0100 To: arnold@iii.net (Non Receipt Notification Requested) Subject: Does E need L and P ? Hi, friends at the ELP Digest ! Thanks to Robert Bratulic asking good questions in the Digest vol 4 #25 ! Especially his question on if Keith actually needs Greg and Carl. I guess there is no simple answer on this, but the common influence on each other was probably greater and more important in the early years. To put it short, as I have done to one of you already: It comes clearer and clearer to me that Keith is the one that at least to me is the most important guy among those three, but he is not quite shipshape yet after his arm-problem. We see that on ITHS. Keith might be a little dark, however, so he needs Greg to cheer him up musically. At ITHS, however, it is for instance maybe too much cheering ?? A Carl in the inspired mood can add a lot to every artist in the world ! IMHO, he is really outstanding ! One problem I see with ELP as a whole, is that they are not ageing with the same musical dignity as for instance Neil Young. Boy, that man is still hungry ! Well, it is not quite bad with ELP, but Robert's question reflects that maybe Keith is the only guy with some hunger left ! I hope others shares their views on this ! It seems rather obvious that at least many of us ELP-freaks-from-the-early-seventies are not quite happy with BM and ITHS. And that is not because the expectations is too high, I guess, but also because the guys are working in another way. We really needs a blockbusting new piece, like KE9 and Pirates. They are different from eachother,but they are comprehensive. Paul Giortz Administrasjonsdepartementet Administrasjonsavdelingen Tlf: (22 34) 46 14 Fax: (22 34) 27 14 E-mail: pal.giortz@ad.dep.telemax.no ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:49:29 +0200 From: Ola Rinta-Koski To: John E Arnold Subject: Romeo and Juliet >It's very ironic that you mention Romeo and Juliet in the same paragraph as >Cheryl Crow. The reason is that Kevin Gilbert, who produced KE's demos which >included Romeo and Juliet (before the band reformed for Black Moon), also As an aside, it's a bit misleading to refer to the track ELP recorded on "Live at the RAH" as "Romeo and Juliet", since it's only 1/10 of the complete ballet (the Allegro pesante part, which is called "The Montagues and Capulets"). Or did everybody know this already? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 08:04:25 -0500 From: david@pharlap.CI.COM (David B. Kuznick) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: CD for sale ELP Knife Edge - Live '71 $22 ppd in US PS This is NOT material from Welcome Back My Friends... David Kuznick - david@ci.com (preferred) or dkuznick@world.std.com Higher than a bird I'm flying ___ Crimson skies of ice and fire {~._.~} Borne on Wings of Steel I have so much to feel ( Y ) And I won't come down no more ()~L~() - Icarus - Borne on Wings of Steel : KANSAS (_)-(_) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Dec 94 08:53 CDT From: Janell Duxbury Subject: Need some Keith Emerson album info To: ARNOLD@III.NET Could someone post the complete album details for Keith Emerson's solo album HONKY? I've not seen this anywhere. I need year, label, number, and track listings (including any classical sources also). Could the person who described the Japanese CD compiling tracks from previous Emerson solo albums please provide me with the label, number and year? I already have the track listings that you posted earlier. It seems my research is never ending...so many details to run down! Thanks, Janell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:24:45 EST From: db 08-Dec-1994 1020 -0400 To: arnold@iii.net Apparently-To: arnold@iii.net Subject: re: Who are the great lyricists of prog rock > Well Ben then who is the Richard Burton of Prog Rock. Who is > the great lyricist that blows Lake away (aside from sinfield). Is it > Palmer-James, some bum on the Gentle Giants, John Wetton, > John Anderson and his Ten-True summers... I am sick of hearing > Lake being dissed for great lyrics... of course now he is an > over-the-hill bum, but in his prime he was one of the best. > > -jf The great lyricist that blows all other away is Kerry Livgren of Kansas. That's in my opinion of course. However unlike a lot of others (apparently) I do rate Lake very highly. "The Only Way" has been posted on my office wall for 15 years now. A copy of it has been tucked inside my wallet for 20 years. To the person that thinks that ELP "got religion" in this new album, I can only say that I interpret some of those lyrics the opposite way. For example: .... There's fire in the heavens It's burning in the hand of truth I view this as (another statement, similar to "The Only Way") that "the heavens" (which is a symbolic reference to religion) and truth often clash which is the underlying theme of "The Only Way" btw. db ------------------------------ From: bstein@aip.acp.org Date: Thu, 08 Dec 1994 12:30:19 -0500 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: I'd Like to Retract the Shatner-Lake Comparison To all who commented on my proposed comparison of Lake to William Shatner: Thanks for replying. I hope I didn't offend anybody; I just meant to inspire some light-hearted discussion. However, I'd like to retract my idea. After reflecting on things a bit, I don't think the comparison holds up too well. As others have rightly pointed out, Greg Lake is an undeniably talented vocalist and bass player. When comparing him to Shatner, I was referring mainly to the lyrics and his delivery of them. Many people, including myself, believe that lyrics are not prog's strong suit. But upon thinking about it, I realized that Lake has written some good lyrics. "Lucky Man" has a clever twist at the end. I like the lyrics to "The Miracle"; the images that it sets up are clear and vivid. I can't quote from memory too well, but some of my favorite lines include "So here we stand between the gates" "In pain a madman staggers..." "His talons shine like daggers" "Another sword upon the throne...But now the jester laughs alone." The lyrics to the song "Black Moon" were reflective of the despair and powerlessness that many of us felt in the early 1990's, with the Gulf War, the deep world recession, and the seemingly intractable environmental problems that were being revealed at the time. I still believe there are better prog lyricists than Lake, including Sinfield, Peter Gabriel in Gabriel-era Genesis, Adrian Belew of King Crimson and Fish of Marillion. But I have to conclude that Lake stands up as one of the better lyricists in prog rock. I don't think he's the best, as some of you might, but I believe that he has written some good stuff. What I meant by the Shatner comparison is that Lake has a penchant for being overdramatic, but in a totally fun and enjoyable way. On the new album, when he croons "In the valley of truth, the shadow is just growing WID-AH" he reminds me of the aging Capt. Kirk, ready to go on one last daring mission. But I know I'm being highly subjective here. Maybe I'm too influenced by the recent release of STAR TREK: GENERATIONS. By the way, I agree that there are lots of Christian images on the new album. I'm not religious, but I find the images appealing. Lake is coming across as more of a family man. I bet if one of us met him today, and we told him we supported the "Daddy" cause, he'd say, "God bless you," like Ray Thomas does after his solos at Moody Blues concerts. Anyway, I don't mean to get anyone mad, but just provide some color. I'd better stop here, as I'm beginning to sound like Tori Amos during one of her interviews. (In her recent Keyboard Magazine interview, for instance, she makes some valid points, but often lapses into weird non-sequiturs, like I'm doing right now. :-) --Ben Stein ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 11:12:52 PST From: mfraser@rs.com (Mark McCarron-Fraser) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: Re: ELP Digest V4 #25 ELP fans! In our last episode, Stimp said: "I would definitely NOT call Cairo an ELP clone band." Thanks Stimp! As you pointed out I do not have all of Cairo's album. (It's supposed to be release in Jan '95, so how did you get it hmmmmm.) ;-) Anyway, I'm glad to hear that they are not just ELP clones. Guess that's another CD I'll have to put on my list . . . BTW, did you know that Vangelis refused to learn other people's music when he was first learning to play piano on the grounds that it had already been done, and was therefore a waste of time! ;-) I think he was 5 or 6 years old at the time. Live long and Progress!! - Mark McCarron-Fraser mfraser@rs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: Fernando Rico To: arnold@iii.net Subject: My Two Cents First off, let me congratulate you on providing this wonderful service to ELP fans. What I'd like to comment on is a reply to Robert Bratulic, "Questions from a Recent Fan", question #5 where he asks if KE needs GL and/or CP. Music being such a personal experience almost dictates various answers to that question. I was attracted to ELP back in the early '70's as a wide-eyed teen hungry for something different. I was delighted by the wonderful sounds KE seemed to pull from his myriad of kybds and this was complemented quite nicely by GL's unique voice and thought-provoking lyrics. CP tied things together with his exciting percussion. So, my answer to Robert's question: KE doesn't need GL and/or CP, we the fans needed KE, GL and CP or there wouldn't be any ELP! Fernando Rico fsr@airpcs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 16:03:11 PST From: mfraser@rs.com (Mark McCarron-Fraser) To: arnold@iii.net Subject: re: Questions from a Recent Fan ELP fans! In Digest 4.25 Robert Bratulic asked: With all due respect, does Emerson need Lake and Palmer? Of course! I submit that ANY band is better if Carl Palmer is in it. Carl is totally and completely awesome! Not only can Carl pound the skins with the best of them, but his sense of timing and use of texture and the amount of space he fills is JUST RIGHT. His sense of the appropriate is really great. I went to see ASIA on their first tour with some trepedation. I told my pals, "Well, at least Carl will be great." And that's how it was. Without Carl Asia would have sucked. (Of course this was before Geoff Downs decided that it was OK to take hot solos in concert. See ASIA in ASIA.) Also, "3" was significantly more entertaining because of Carl. Which brings us to GREG. (He who is totally unlike Shatner.) 3 falls rather short of the ELP standard. ELPowell does not. The difference is GREG. Look at early ELP albums. "Take a Pebble" was written by Greg, "Battelfield" was written by Greg, much of "Pictures" was either Mussorgsky/Lake or Lake, "Canario" was Greg's doing (one of the few redeeming features on that disc). Greg is great! Lastly, I've seen ELP nine (9) times. Keith and Carl are almost always hot, but when GREG is hot, the performance goes completely over the top. Somehow, Greg energizes Keith and Carl. It's not an accident that Greg produced the first five albums. (PLEASE Greg, if you're reading this, PLEASE produce the next ELP album.) Greg is more than just the lyricist. He's written quite a bit of the music, and he is the foundation on which ELP is built. So no more slagging Greg. Afterall, this isn't the YES newsletter. Besides, can you imagine Shatner singing "Living Sin"? ;-) Live long and Progress!! responses, death-threats, love letters, aso, gladly received at: - mfraser@rs.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 14:08:40 +1100 (EST) From: Dan Lange-Kornbak Subject: Comments on ItHS To: arnold@iii.net Someone mentioned ItHS references to Wetton. What about "I believe in me and you - tonight" (don't remenber what song). Doesn't it sound a bit like Sinfield ? The lyrics on Love Beach are probably the main reason why I have taped the album a couple of times only to tape another one on top of it shortly after. I recall Sinfield being responsible for the lyrics on LB. (Sometimes I ask myself where ELP's responsibility towards their own music is ?) Now I'm at it, I may as well give my comments on ItHS, which I am happy (!?) to announce finally has found its way to Australia. The people surrounding them, especially the producer, Keith Olsen, were obviously a bad choice. Could someone please tell me this mans record of productions ? It could give us some answers on some of the questions ItHS raises. The sound is just not that typical sound that most of us appreciate and combine with ELP; who are really playing the instruments here ? I see "Pictures..." as their counterpart to Genesis' and Yes' tradition of finishing their recent albums by showing their real potential (the reason why some of us still buy Genesis' new releases). But why did ELP have to dig out a tune they have already done before ? Could it be that this is a way of putting an end to ELP by finishing off the way they started ? I hope not. And the cover : (I belong to those to whom the cover plays an important role. Another reason why I don't like, and own, LB). Ok, so ELP is the old steam train in full speed being stopped by something (we all know that). What is it that's stopping them from progressing ? They even got the drawings to the "old ELP train". Why don't they use them ? I see ItHS as a less complex album (who wouldn't) like their earlier works and as incoherent as these. But this has always been ELP's forte. Lake's simplicity up against Emerson's complexity. I also see it as an attempt to conform with some of todays neo-prog bands, such as It Bites. I don't think it should be compared to their seventies music (you can only get dissappointed) but to todays neo-prog music. Perhaps then you start liking it. Well, this was only meant as a small comment on the lyrics on ItHS, and look what happend. Anyway. Still loving you (ELP) - tonight. Dan ------------------------------ From: ScottClev@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 09:23:31 -0500 To: arnold@iii.net Subject: ELP at Circut City! This is my first letter to the ELP digest, so I thought I'd tell of a recent experience with ELP..... About a year ago, I was reading the Sunday paper and I saw an ad for a new Circut City (Electronics Superstore), and to promote the opening of the store and the release of "Return of the Manticore" (RM), ELP was to be there signing autographs. I really could not believe it - and since I live close by I went. And sure enough, at 6:00 PM on a thursday evening, Keith, Greg and Carl were sitting a table signing autographs at the Montgomeryville, Pa, Circut City. Orignally the store was to only let them sign purchased copies of RM, but it seemed that that did not last too long, as people were standing in line with old ELP, King Crimson and The Nice albums. As this was going on, the monitors all over the store were showing The Manitcore Documentary (very good video). It was a light showing of fans to say the least. I would estimate that there were no more than 100 people in line for autographs, and besides them, the store has little business going on (well it was 6 o'clock in the evening, and I guess most people were home eating dinner). It was a little depressing to see them doing this, but I guess you have to do what you have to do. Oh yea... I have read the ongoing reviews of Black Moon and In the Hot Seat - I have Black Moon and don't think too much of it, and to date have not bought ITHS. But it seems that when anyone talks of these CD's and Bad ELP music, the Love Beach Album always comes up. While I don't think think it is there best effort and the "Exclusive ELP Tour Gear" that you could purchase through the album sleeve (Hey, anyone buy any??) was pretty bad, I thought the side "Memoirs of an Officer and a Gentlemen" was and still is really good. The theme that is constant in lyrics is very unique, and while there is not alot of flashy instrumentals, it is still good and for me and holds up over time. Now, on the other hand I did not think too much of the first side. ------------------------------ Digest, mailing address, and administrative stuff to: arnold@iii.net ==\ => NEW (as of 11/17/94) ELP-related info that you / want to put in the digest to: arnold@iii.net =/ Back issues are available from the World Wide Web ELP Home Page: URL: http://bliss.berkeley.edu/elp/ Back issues are also available via anonymous ftp: ftp site: ftp.uwp.edu user name: anonymous password: provide a full email address path: /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1991/elp-digest-1.* /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1992/elp-digest-2.* /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1993/elp-digest-3.* /pub/music/lists/elp/digests/1994/elp-digest-4.* Note: The opinions, information, etc. contained in this digest are those of the original message sender listed in each messag. Theyy are not necessarily those of the mailing list/digest administrator or those of any institution through whose computers/networks this mail flows. Unless otherwise noted, the individual authors of each entry in the Digest are the copyright holders of that entry. Please respect that copyright and act accordingly. I especially ask that you not redistribute the ELP Digest in whole or in part without acknowledging the original source of the digest and each author. Thanks! ------------------------------ End of ELP Digest [Volume 4 Issue 27] *************************************