ELP Digest 15 September, 2003 Volume 13 : Issue 8 The "Feed The Furnace" Edition Today's Topics: Breaking News, Rumors, Etc. - Knife Edge (August 23, 2003) - Nice (August 28, 2003) Reader Commentary - ELP Hardrock - November 1972 (August 22, 2003) - Re: ELP Hardrock - November 1972 (August 22, 2003) - Karn Evil 9 cover by Paul Gilbert (August 22, 2003) - RE: Re-Works? (August 22, 2003) - re: Greg's voice (August 27, 2003) - VIDEOS AND MINI MOOGS (August 28, 2003) - Vivacitas (September 1, 2003) - Keith Emerson biog (September 4, 2003) - nice ticket (September 4, 2003) - The Callow, and Crash, and Idle Eyes (September 9, 2003) - Re: Reworks / Brain Salad Perjury / warning Questions (and Answers!) - 2nd Impression Steel Drum Sound (August 21, 2003) - Emerson Offspring (August 21, 2003) - Re: ELP Digest Vol. 13 #7 (August 21, 2003) - Re: ELP Digest Vol. 13 #7 (August 22, 2003) - steel drum solo karn evil 9 (August 27, 2003) - 'who plays the steel drum type solo?' (August 30, 2003) - Emerson offspring (September 5, 2003) ELP-related products, tribute bands, promoters (The ELP Digest does not endorse, etc.) - Seven Virgins & a Mule has new members (September 10, 2003) - Planeta Rock from Argentina (September 14, 2003) =========================== Prelude =========================== Hi. There's a lot going on as summer winds down in the Northern Hemisphere. There are some new DVD compilations that include an appearance by ELP and/or The Nice. Carl is planning some drum clinics in the US. Keith is readying a tour in the UK. Lots of answers to the question about the 2nd impression 'steel drum' solo, etc. On with the show. - John - ------------------------------ Latest News from the Official ELP sites: New on the official ELP Global Web Site – an all-new secure online ELP gift shop through OneShopRock.com. Here’s the link: http://www.streamteam.com/1shoprock/default.asp?id=102&cat=ELP%20Gift%20Shop Product back in stock includes the "Live at Royal Albert Hall" DVD and VHS, and also the ever-popular ELP Christmas Ornament. :) Greg’s online shop has moved to OneShopRock.com, too – here’s the link: http://www.streamteam.com/1shoprock/default.asp?id=100&cat=Greg%20Lake%20Shop According to the official notice, "returning shoppers will notice that the gift shop page has changed. Our new gift shop has been upgraded a good deal to make your shopping experience richer and smoother as well as very secure using 128 Bit Encryption to keep your information safe and private. The shopping process is easy and intuitive and there will be simple instructions in the shop when you enter it." There are also instructions for phone/fax orders, too. Elsewhere … at http://www.keithemerson.com/ - Work continues on updates to the site. The latest additions include a description and links to reviews of Keith's autobiography and a new Nice Live CD (recorded last year in Glasgow), the latest tour dates (for the October UK tour), and a brand new 'Ask Emo!' section where Keith will answer questions from his fans as time allows. (Inspired by the questions to the ELP Digest over the years and triggered by the questions about the 'steel drum' solo in the 2nd Impression in the previous issue!) On Carl’s site at http://www.carlpalmer.com/news.html, there’s exciting news that Carl will be holding his first two U.S. Drum Clinic dates in NY and Philly later this month – stayed tuned for locations and times! There are also gig dates for "Palmer" all around England and Scotland through November, including a new date just added for Huddersfield on November 22! Plus – the "Working Live" snare drum contest is now closed and the winner will be announced next week. Good luck to all who entered! Enjoy. =========================== Breaking News, Rumors, Etc. =========================== From: Dave Bailey [davidbailey@fenetre.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:04 AM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Knife Edge Hi John There are a couple of DVDs released by DTS called "Let It Rock" volumes 1 & 2. On each DVD there are 22 original rare tv recordings of various artists, Free, Deep Purple, Yes, Cream, Jethro Tull to name just a few. On volume 2 is a fantastic version of "Knife Edge" recorded live in the studio in full colour, with Keith sporting a full beard. I've read Keith's book, which I found to be a frank, honest and sometimes painful account of life in the world of rock. It seemed to leave out a large part of the 80s and 90s (could there be another book in the pipe line, as Keith seems to have a literary talent). There was no mention of his time with The Best, Three or Emerson Lake & Powell. I would have liked to have read more about the music, and how he got the ideas for some of the pieces like Tarkus, Karn Evil 9, Etc. All in all, this was a book worth waiting for. Dave Bailey Stoke-on-Trent --------------------------------------------- From: Dave Bailey [davidbailey@fenetre.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 7:00 AM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Nice Hi John I've found another DVD set from Rhino Home Video called "Rock Icons". This is a 3 DVD set of live recordings of artist such as Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix, The Byrds, Arthur Brown, Black Sabbath, and more. There is also a live recording from the Beat Club of The Nice, playing "Hang On To A Dream". Although in black & white the quality is not bad. Dave Bailey Stoke-on-Trent =========================== Reader Commentary =========================== From: Colin Dyer [safe@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:17 AM To: graham.sherwood@tesco.net; elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: ELP Hardrock - November 1972 Hi Graham (and John) Re: Hardrock, Manchester gig.... I too was there at the best concert of my life! Saw Floyd, Yes, Tull, Stones, Genesis, Purple, Zep, but NO ONE TOUCHED ELP!! But.... it really pisses me off that there is no record of this concert anywhere, including on Lake's website. And no matter how many emails I post there, no one seems to know the exact date. It says there that ELP played the Free Trade Hall on 13 Nov 72. Maybe, but they were also at the Hardrock that month! And they did three encores, the last of which was AFTER the lights came back on and they returned to stage --- in dressing gowns!! Man, they were hot. Col Dyer --------------------------------------------- From: Graham Sherwood [graham.sherwood@tesco.net] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:20 PM To: Colin Dyer Cc: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Re: ELP Hardrock - November 1972 Hi Colin, That is fantastic !!! I had given up hope of ever meeting anyone who had been to that gig. It sounds like you enjoyed just as much as I did. Listening to the ELP bootleg CD's which have become available in the last year or so triggered a lot of memories I had forgotten - like the tape sounds at the beginning of Tarkus ( sounds like someone being strangled ! ). I know what you mean about it being a 'forgotten gig' - I was disappointed when it was not mentioned in the appendix of the recent ELP book. In the book it also mentioned the model Tarkus squirted foam - but I don't remember that - do you ? I think it was November when we went , it was dark on the way - but it was a long time ago , and I was just 14 ! Regards, Graham Sherwood --------------------------------------------- From: Colin Dyer [safe@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 8:03 AM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Karn Evil 9 cover by Paul Gilbert Hey John/gents/ladies On Amazon.com, this guy (Paul Gilbert) has an album called "Paul the Young Dude" with a cover of Karn! There are 3 different import versions of "...Young Dude", but only one has Karn Evil 9 on it. He's a guitarist of some note (in U.S.?) but I know nothing of him here in Oz. Any info? Col --------------------------------------------- From: BARLETB@Nationwide.com Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 8:50 AM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: RE: Re-Works? Is this just the "Dance Re-mix" version of ELP? Is it worth the money, or is it something that I should pass on? (Such as the remixed stuff that recently came out for that band that begins with "Y") Luckily I was in a Barnes & Noble and they have "listening stations" so I got to hear what Steve Howes son Virgil (aka "The Verge") did to mess up his fathers work.. (think the 90125 remixes..if you could tolerate that, then that disc is for you) I guess money for the band is money for the band, but the dance mix/ambient track/bluegrass versions of classic music is getting a bit lame! Just the view from my seat........... Ben Barletta Hershey, PA --------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Florio" [mflorio@bestweb.net] To: Cc: "ELP Digest" Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 1:18 PM Subject: re: Greg's voice > >>If someone into male's voice classification (acquainted > >>with its very tricky frontier cases) could give us a word, > >>I'd be really happy to hear. I've always thought of Greg as a 'lyric baritone'. Yes, his voice deepened over the years, but at first it was more of an added depth rather than a changing vocal range. He probably always had that low D, but it never sounded nice and full until his later years. Greg's voice had already 'deepened' by ELPowell in the 1980s, but his range was obviously unaffected, as he was singing all the high passages as good as ever in concert. Not sure what happened in the '90s, as his range actually did diminish. Could be a function of age combined with lax technique. Mike --------------------------------------------- From: gsnw10037@blueyonder.co.uk Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 6:52 PM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: VIDEOS AND MINI MOOGS John. In response to Phil Kelly's points about ELP videos. I too remember the Montreal video (clips of which have been seen in subsequent video releases), leather and fur jackets, and an awful lot of snow. Keith was playing his new £20k Yamaha synth if I recall... The video to 'I Believe In Father Christmas' was featured on UK TV last December in a program 'The Top 10 Xmas Pop Videos (or something similarly titled). Quite a bit of the video was shown, and Greg was interviewed. The whole thing was put together to pull back from Greg sitting playing his Gibson to reveal (instead of a seasonal snowscape) a desert, sand dunes and quite a few camels. I can't remember seeing it first time around so it was nice to see it featured. I also remember the TOTP spot when the guys played 'All I Want Is You'. I think I cringed for the entire 3 minutes...they put on a brave face, but it seemed obvious that they were not enjoying it. I also seem to think that they were forced to mime and pretend to play along to the backing track (...as did most of the featured TOTP artists at that time). Maybe that was why they weren't enjoying themselves! The hour-long special would indeed be 'The Manticore Special'. It was aired for the first time in the UK 1973 on Boxing night as an 'Old Grey Whistle test Special'...I took photographs off the TV (only partly successful) and taped the soundtrack onto cassette. I still have the original somewhere. The later video (which I obtained a couple of years back from the ELP website) was re-released in 1998 and had had a partially remixed soundtrack as far as I could make out. On Phil's second mail regarding the 'steel drum solo' on the 2nd Impression, it was indeed Keith playing one of the synths. I agree with John's comments - there was a synth placed on top of the grand piano during the concerts in the UK which comprised the 'Brain Salad' tour. You can actually see it on the album cover to 'WBMFTTSTNE' (inside booklet on the CD, rear cover for the vinyl version). It could be a MiniMoog with the top board laid flat to the rear of the keys, but I can't be sure. Phil - like you I'm looking forward to seeing Keith and The Nice play the Liverpool Philharmonic on 12th October. Maybe we can add a review or two into the Digest afterwards? Cheers - Graham Seaman (Liverpool, UK). --------------------------------------------- From: Eriko Yatabe-Waldock [miroopy@attglobal.net] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 12:16 AM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Vivacitas Hello John Received Vivacitas, 3CD set, by Keith and the Nice the other day. My only comment is…. Hope they will tour the US soon or shoot the autumn shows for DVD release! Eriko Yatabe-Waldock --------------------------------------------- From: Yves Lorson [Yves.Lorson@haven.Antwerpen.be] Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 1:21 AM To: 'elp-digest@reluctant.com' Subject: nice ticket hello Nice and ELP fans I bought a ticket for Keith and the Nice, Croydon Fairfield Halls on October 22nd but I am unable to go. If anyone is interested in buying it, please contact me at: yves.lorson@haven.antwerpen.be I will sell it at the price I bought it (some 25 £ I suppose) yves lorson nijverheidslei 26 2180 ekeren Belgium greetings long live Keith ! --------------------------------------------- From: DUMMER1997@aol.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:39 AM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Keith Emerson biog As with any biog these days about a 70's Rock Star , there are the inevitable stories of Sex, Drugs and rock n roll. Emo's falls right into that trap. But if he has to 'tell it like it was' then full credit for his honesty .The tales concerning his adventures with the members of Led Zeppelin are an example of why a biog. is impossible without such tales of debauchery, therefore upsetting current, ex and ex-ex wives alongside children and in some cases grandchildren! Only the lawyers gain from it and projects like the film of the Led Zep story never get past the first draft script. My main criticism of the Nice and WBMFTTSTNE books were that however factual and concise they are, we didn't find out much about the lives of our heroes. What they were/are like. Emo's book goes a long way to helping on that one. But why are 320 pages devoted to the first 12 years of his career and only 3 to the next 25 ??. No mention of the split in 1980 and 96'. Whilst i get the feeling Emo isn't a man interested in returning to former glories (the general public forget that ELP were once up there with The Stones, Zep, Who etc) it is a real tragedy that only the diehards will find this book of interest because of that underachievement since the late 70's. Many of his tales would have attracted tabloid headlines if told in that period, now many would ask, "who is he"? That is the real untold story of Emo and ELP. There must be many 'if only's'. As far as I am aware the book has come out without any publicity or promotion, that too is rather curious. More chapters to come we hope, the show hasn't ended yet ! --------------------------------------------- From: Allegra, Paul (Exchange) [PAllegra@bear.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:35 AM To: 'elp-digest@reluctant.com' Subject: The Callow, and Crash, and Idle Eyes Hi John, I lost a lot of "stuff" in a fire a few years ago. My entire vinyl boot collection gone. I had several ELP vinyl boots. In particular, one title "The Callow, and Crash, and Idle Eyes". This boot was a shadow image of WBMFTTSTNE. It lifted Hoedown and KE9 from the original recording but had audience recordings of Jerusalem and Tocatta from an unknown source. Tocatta in particular was "nasty". Greg was playing heavy distorted guitar and was way up in the mix; Carl's tymp performance ends wtih a drum synth segway of 4 half-notes (boop-boop-boop-boop) into chaos. Cool version. Between each song was the added bonus of Star Trek outtakes, hilarious, each about 30 seconds in length. Most appropriate. Anybody heard this one? Thanks - Paul [ Editor's Note: I typically don't include discussion of bootlegs in the Digest. But this question was a direct one and, since I still am trying to sort out the various bootlegs that were in the officially released Manticore Bootleg Series, I thought I'd put this one in so I can also ask people who know them better than me whether this bootleg is one of the ones included in the official set. Thanks! - John - ] --------------------------------------------- From: John Hughes [mailto:john@pureneasy.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:53 PM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Re: Reworks / Brain Salad Perjury / warning >> So I ordered it, and when it arrived, in a spiffing little card >> box, it turned out to be the Reworks triple cd set repackaged. >> Brain Salad perjury is on the invisible hands music label catalogue >> number ihcd 23. >> >> [ Editor's Note: For further clarification, I have the 3-CD set >> called Re-works and my copy is copyright nmc music but the >> packaging is listed as catalog number Pilot145. It may be an >> acquired taste but I like it. I knew other ELP fans would like it too! I do think it's a great revamp of ELP material. >> I know there are people who love to listen for classical/etc. >> quotes that Keith throws in. Well, I don't know enough classical >> music to be good at that. But I love trying to figure out where >> the samples used in these tracks come from. The music is very >> interesting to me and trying to figure out how they did it and >> where the samples/loops come from is very entertaining. Isn't it just? My only beef is that the remix of Fanfare played as an intro on last November's Keith & the Nice shows isn't included on this set. Cheers, John =========================== Questions (and Answers!) =========================== From: Naegellen, Chris E [chris.naegellen@eds.com] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:58 AM To: 'elp-digest@reluctant.com' Subject: 2nd Impression Steel Drum Sound Hi John, In response to Phil Kelly's email from ELP Digest, Volume 13, Issue 7: I believe you are correct that the steel drum part in 2nd Impression was played by Keith on a Minimoog. Tom Rhea's Sound Charts Manual that was later provided with the Minimoog contained patches called "Aquatarkus," "Trilogy," and "Steel Drum from Brain Salad Surgery". Since Keith assuredly did use a Minimoog for the first two, I think it's a safe bet that he used it for the last one as well. For a copy of the patch, check out: http://www.soundofmusic.se/synth/minimoog/minimoog.htm ~Chris Naegellen --------------------------------------------- From: Peter Wilton [pjsw@beaufort.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:22 PM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Emerson Offspring [From the last Digest], >[ Editor's Note: First, this person is NOT related to me. Second, > as I recall Keith has 2 sons. (In the liner notes > to Reworks, he says "I called upon my sons for > their opinions...") One was named Aaron (after > Aaron Copland. I think the other was named Damian > (but I might be wrong about that). At least one of > here at the Digest thinks that Aaron may be a > musician but we're really not sure. I believe the other son is called Damon, rather than Damian (unless where I saw it is another Emerson typo!). -- Peter Wilton The Gregorian Association Web Site: http://www.beaufort.demon.co.uk --------------------------------------------- From: Joe Gerardi [joegerardi@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:05 PM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Re: ELP Digest Vol. 13 #7 >>> [Editor's Note: I recall that, when this was played >>> live during the Brain Salad Surgery tour, the grand >>> piano had MiniMoog sitting on top (where the music >>> stand would normally be). The steel drum part was >>> played by Keith on the synth keyboard while the other >>> part was played on the Steinway. (At least I think it >>> was a Minimoog keyboard.) Any one know more details? >>> What I've always wanted to know is what's he actually >>> saying in the parts that sound like someone talking an >>> Ewok-like language. (And, yes, I realize that this was years >>> before the Ewoks appeared in The Empire Strikes Back.) And you are indeed right it WAS a Mini. The whole thing, not just the keyboard. It was just laying flat, rather than in it upright position. [ Though I was referring to background chatter in the 2nd Impression, the following are, indeed, the words to the processed computer voice done by Keith in the 3rd Impression. ] As to BSS Part III, Keith says: "Danger" "Stranger" "Load your program: I am yourself" And at the end of the tune: Negative. Primitive. Limited. I let you live. (But I gave you life.) What else could you do (To do what was right.) (I'm pefect, are you?) This sound was created by combining a mic input with a ring modulation. I was able to do the same thing on my Arp 2600 yonks ago. Joe --------------------------------------------- From: Curt Cassingham [curtNOSPAM@NOSPAMcurtcass.com] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:06 PM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Re: ELP Digest Vol. 13 #7 John, Regarding Phil Kelly's query (below) about steel drums in Karn Evil 9 Second Impression, it is indeed Keith playing the part on a Minimoog. In the BSS tours I saw in 1974, the Mini was perched on the piano. If I recall correctly (it's been over 25 years since I've seen it!), the California Jam videos showed pretty good close-ups of him playing it. I also dug up a copy of Circus Raves magazine, August 1974. Page 2 shows Keith at the grand piano in what appears to be the BSS tour setup. One can see the piano with the Minimoog on top. Visible behind Keith is the electronic honky-tonk piano used on Benny the Bouncer. As for the Ewokian chatter, I tried to isolate it by slowing down the playback bit rate, but I still can't make it out. It's mixed 'way back, and could be a different language or just plain gibberish. Now that you're "in charge" of KeithEmerson.com, maybe you can ask the man himself! Curt [ Editor's Note: Thanks to Curt for providing the final impetus to 'ask the man himself'! For Keith's own take on the questions from last month about the steel drum solo (and my additional question about the chatter in the background), please check out the new 'Ask Emo!' section of http://www.keithemerson.com. - John - ] --------------------------------------------- From: Ron Emerick [sparkybellaire@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 12:53 AM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: steel drum solo karn evil 9 Hello John, First, just wanted to say what a wonderful job you've been doing for "us" ELP fans. I've been an ELP fan since 1972 when I saw a picture of Keith's moog synth on the cover of Cream (rock magazine from 70's). BTW, I wanted to name my son Keith, because he would be called Keith Emerick but my wife vetoed it. In response to a question about the steel drum solo in karn evil 9, I believe that was the minimoog. I saw them play it live at Rich Stadium (Buffalo, New York, 1974). As far as the ewoks sounds, I'm don't think they are on the live album, unless you are referring to the processed voice in the 3rd impression. Keep up the great work! Ron Emerick --------------------------------------------- From: Keith Pomfret [keith@pomfret.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 5:21 PM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: 'who plays the steel drum type solo?' As I remember it, the steel drum was done on the Moog by Emerson - I seem to remember seeing two different versions (setups) and spent ages trying to figure out how it was done. (a bit difficult on a Davolisint which was all I could afford as a young teenager). Eventually when cash permitted, I bought a shop-soiled Minimoog, and in the patch book supplied with it, there was a diagram for how to get Emerson's Steel drum sound. Also included were a nice fat Emobass and a rather nifty Aquatarkus patch (did anyone ever have such fun with a box of sus 4ths) Like most 'patch' diagrams, they didn't sound 100 percent pucker but that could have been the lack of decent amplification equipment as the patches purported to be crafted by Emerson himself. There was even a signature on one of them. (it matched his autograph - I checked) Anyway, to answer the question in a bit more detail, the steel drum was obtained (I think - it's a long time ago) by using oscillator 3 as a modulator but instead of using the 'Lo' cyclic rate to obtain a vibrato, setting it to one of the 'audible' octaves but isolating it from the sound chain - only using it as a modulator. Judicious mod-wheel tweaking could take it from a gentle burr to a screaming steel drum and beyond. If that doesn't answer the question and no-one else has offered, I could, at a pinch, delve into the tin trunk at the end of the bed, find the Emersonesque patches and scan/attach them in a later post. There are, I think, a couple of Wakeman patches in the book as well. --------------------------------------------- From: Joerg Reinicke [joergreinicke@web.de] Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:06 AM To: elp-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Emerson offspring In response to Kim Ashley Arnold (Darlingkim1210@aol.com): >>> Kim originally wrote: "I had a quick question about Keith >>> Emerson and any children he may have had. If he did have a son, >>> is he in music by any chance?" I just found one source (http://members.tripod.com/rant58/id378.htm) claiming that Aaron Emerson, son of Keith, was a short time member of Big Country appearing on their 7th album "Why the long face" in 1995. Nevertheless I doubt that this correct because other Big Country sites do not confirm this information. Any comments on this? Greetings, Joerg =========================== ELP-related products, tribute bands, promoters (The ELP Digest does not endorse, etc.) =========================== From: Steve Andersen [andersen@herridge.ca] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:44 PM To: ELP-digest@reluctant.com Subject: Seven Virgins & a Mule has new members. Seven Virgins & a Mule - A Tribute to Emerson, Lake & Palmer would like to welcome Jamie Canivet to the group as bassist, vocalist & guitarist and Kevin Mulligan as percussionist. Both men bring many years of performing experience to the job. To see pictures and bios, please surf by the website at your leisure. Regards Steve Andersen www.sevenvirgins.com steve@sevenvirgins.com --------------------------------------------- From: planetarock@ciudad.com.ar [mailto:planetarock@ciudad.com.ar] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:46 PM To: ELP Digest Subject: Planeta Rock from Argentina Hello, we are from Argentina and we have a radio program call Planeta Rock in FM Patricios 95.5 from Buenos Aires. We have a Web Page too, in which we report the news, CD reviews, concerts, and interviews of the important artists of the AOR, Progressive, Symphonic, Heavy and the Hard Rock. We hope to be able to have you spread some new project to our public. planetarock@ciudad.com.ar WWW.PLANETA-ROCK.COM.AR =========================== Digest subscription, mailing address, and administrative stuff to: elp-digest-request@reluctant.com ELP-related info that you want to put in the digest to: elp-digest@reluctant.com Back issues are available from the ELP Digest web site: URL: http://www.brain-salad.com/ Note: The opinions, information, etc. contained in this digest are those of the original message sender listed in each message. They are not necessarily those of the mailing list/digest administrator or those of any institution through whose computers/networks this mail flows. Unless otherwise noted, the individual authors of each entry in the Digest are the copyright holders of that entry. Please respect that copyright and act accordingly. I especially ask that you not redistribute the ELP Digest in whole or in part without acknowledging the original source of the digest and each author. Thanks! End of ELP Digest [Volume 13, Issue 8] **************************************